My past experiences tell me you need to have a plan beyond Google.
Last week I wrote an article about how some sites on Epik’s platform were de-indexed from Google but how I thought the company would be OK. A number of commentors disagreed, which is fine. But let me explain my take.
I’ve written a number of articles about Epik as they’ve launched new services. I don’t believe I’ve ever “endorsed” Epik as a product. I’ve cautiously watched the company. I say “cautiously” because the company has walked a fine line between being a platform vs. a “mass development” service. I like the former, not the latter.
As I’ve blogged about before, I have tried mass-producing sites. Back in 2004-2005 I used some software to develop expired domains I’d purchased. That was before page rank got deleted on expired domains and before Google learned how to weed out such sites. It was awesome. At one point my network was making more than $1,000 a day.
But then Google contacted me. Not their search side, but Adsense. I was monetizing my pages with Adsense and they said my pages weren’t of the quality required for the program. Frankly, they were right.
I then tried several other approaches to mass development. Some worked for a short while, before Google caught up. So I learned that most of these things work only for the short term.
So now that Epik has experienced the Google hammer, I actually feel better about its prospects. Before I kept thinking to myself “when will Google catch up”. Now that it has, Epik will be forced to take a different approach.
For many companies this would be the end of the road. Every other “system” I’ve used to create sites has ended up just disappearing after Google caught on. But instead, Rob Monster and Epik are saying “OK, here’s what we do next.” That’s promising. And frankly, it should make people sleep better at night knowing that there’s something beyond Google for Epik sites.
Perhaps Epik has made it seem too easy for customers — just let us create a site and then watch the money roll in. What it needs to do is advertise Epik merely as a platform. It’s a platform to create an online store or directory, but it also requires elbow grease. Customers don’t have to reinvent the wheel with backend technology, but they do need to invest the time in creating real content.
It’s the same thing with so-called mini sites. If you create a small web site with five pages of content and then don’t do anything with it, it will wither on the vine. The mini site should only be a starting point.
Regardless of where Epik is one, two, and five years down the road, the domain name industry should support the company’s efforts…and those of all its competitors. That people are investing their own money to find a development solution is to the benefit of the entire industry.
Jeff Edelman says
Well said, Andrew, and I agree. The reason that I have confidence in Epik is that they appear to be a really professional organization run by professional people that are genuinely interested in producing good products for the industry. So if anybody can pull it off, they can.
steve says
Unfortunately, unless they can convince google it will flop. So much for their we have a great relationship with google talk.
They have to answer that question first. Why then did google dump you like a rock.
brian k says
With the new changes at Epik I think going forward sites on the platform will do ok.
One thing is certain. I have tested the platform and all sites that i have added have doubled revenue or more.
For instance one of my sites was make 2 bucks a month before the epik platform.
After the site is making $30 per month, half going to me, a 700% increase.
I can now sell the site for a reasonable price and get a very good return on it.
todaro says
i think in the end… the epik smallstore platform will work for high quality product domain names.
chris says
@ steve
“They have to answer that question first. Why then did google dump you like a rock.”
Weren’t they instituting a link farm strategy? And all backlinks were coming from the same IP (or same few IPs). It wasn’t a matter of ‘if’ Google would drop them like a rock but ‘when’.
What I fail to understand is how they didn’t know this would happen.
And another thing, even when they had this link farm (which should have really helped their sites in the SERPs), all articles I read said that the majority of their sites were making a buck a day. If you can rack up some revenue while implementing a link farm strategy how will you rack up revenue now that all your sites backlinks are gone?
Kevin says
Epik can succeed best if their clients use type-in domains with lots of natural traffic so they aren’t so dependent on search engines for traffic or if a site owner invests in advertising, marketing and promotion on the domains that have little or no built-in traffic.
It’s a very hard challenge though to get enough traffic from the SE’s alone unless you can find a way to stay in the top 10 search results for your prime keywords. That has and can be done by some SEO wizards but you really have to stay on top of the SEO components of your sites to keep that top ranking spot continuously. The competition for 1st page results on Google is enormous. It’s also very difficult from a time and logistics standpoint to give custom SEO attention to individual sites when you have 10’s of thousands of sites to manage every day.
So my top advice to Rob is to get your customers to invest in advertising campaigns for each site they put on the platform. And make them realize not all advertising works right away. It takes a lot of ad repitition to brand a site perfectly so it’s a long term investment. And, not all ad campaigns will work, but enough usually to do to make it a profitable endeavor overall.
Bobby Lafaye says
@todaro I alluded to the ‘smallstore’ approach using the best of the best product domains as a virtual ‘strip mall’ if Rob can get the high quality domains needed to make it work.
His best shot is to handle the logistics between site, consumers, and shippers.
Deke says
It’s nice that Rob is proactive, but even if one looks at it as a platform to dev sites using one’s own elbow grease, if he decides to host all these unique sites created by individual webmasters, he will still need to buy up some IP blocks to host these domains on different IP’s.
Using the same IP for thousands of sites, or linking back and forth from the same IP to multiple sites, is nothing different than banging your head against a wall.
It’s lunacy to spin this different if Rob does not take on this IP issue. It’s simply a differernt product with the same fundamental cracks in the foundation. Fix the foundation before you build again would be my advice– but what do I know? I only bought up several IP blocks ten years ago simply b/c I saw this same problem ten years ago. Nothing has changed in ten years, and that was a big mistake of Rob’s.
I do hope he succeeds though. I am still rooting for him b/c we need some real successes in this domain space. I also commend him for having the fortitude to stand up to this and the criticism that always unfolds in these situations.
RKB says
1. “That people are investing their own money to find a development solution is to the benefit of the entire industry.”
I kind of disagree here becuase everybody is in it for money. Haven’t people paid epik $249 per site? How is that being viewed as a favor by epik to it’s customers/domainers? I hope you see my point here.
2. I do agree however that all mass development will fail after a while.
I am afraid that any new changes made by epik will be platform-wide and all sites will again look same and we will deal with this de-indexing again in few months. What do you think?
3. “What it needs to do is advertise Epik merely as a platform. It’s a platform to create an online store or directory, but it also requires elbow grease.”
I again disagree here: if all we want is a development platform, then there are so many….case in ppoint WordPress/WordPressMultiSite/BuddyPress and so many others. THEY ARE FREE. You can either get a free template or just buy 1 template for like $50 or so and develop your own sites……UN-LIMITED SITES FOR FREE.
So my question is “Why do people need to pay epik $249 per site if they still need to do this work?”
I don’t mind paying money but I don’t want to spend my time in that case. If I am paying $249/site and I order 100 sites…..do you think I have time to spend on 100 sites?
In that case I am better of hiring 1 or 2 people and have them develop me WP based sites with minimal cost….no need to pay $249 per site and then spend all the time daily working on these sites in my opinion.
I would even think that you are less likely to be de-indexed if you develop on your own and don’t put duplicate content or copied content on your sites.
RKB says
Re: SAME IP ISSUES
Have someone looked at Amazon.com ‘s EC2 product and Elastic IP addresses.
I am not sure if amazon hosting using Elastic IPs can help? Anyone?
steve says
Most people want him to succeed, but what he said and what happened are different.
You sell someone a box of apples, they don’t want to find them rotten when they get home.
Duane says
Mass development. What does it mean?
Content reproduction, same coding on thousands of sites. In the words of Google, a big pile of spaming junk sites.
Mass copy! It’s always the same book with a different cover. I really hoped Epik was on to something, but I just couldn’t see it happening.
To many domainers rely on other people doing the job for them. The platform can actually work, if people are willing to write some content.
The two biggest problems they had?
1.Same IP for all domains
2.Backlinks within the IP Network ( Big, Big, Big NO-GO)
How could it work?
1.Stop the Linkfarming. No more backlinks to each other.
2.Don’t forward domains to the Epik Nameserver ( Keep your domains at your registrar and buy some cheap server space. From there you could connect your domains to the external data bank which Epik provides.
3.Write at least some content on theses sites.
4.Do your own SEO and build some backlinks.
While this might also fail. The question is, do you have a choice to develop in any different way?
At last it all comes down to work, if you want to actually develop a business. No one is going to do it for you.
RKB says
Hi Andrew,
Is there something offending in my comment?
If not, please don’t put it in moderation que as it have spent good time providing a real thought-out feedback on your article, even though I have disagreed with you a bit.
Thanks.
Andrew Allemann says
@ RKB – I don’t decide what goes into moderation…Wordpress’ Akismet system does. Your comment is now posted.
Grant says
5 page mini sites will not whither and die, depending on the keywords and competition.
I have proven results that small mini sites with good on page SEO, quality content, and a few quality backlinks can stay on 1st page of Google without EVER being touched or updated.
Of course I am referring to smaller volume, direct keywords. (But that is mainly what Epik targets on their acquisition model). Can you really create more than 5 pages about a topic like convertible sofa beds or hooded bath towells? The .com of both those terms are operated bye Epik. I am almost certain you could build a 5 pager on those domains that would rank and stay ranked.
RKB says
1. “That people are investing their own money to find a development solution is to the benefit of the entire industry.”
I kind of disagree here becuase everybody is in it for money. Haven’t people paid epik $249 per site? How is that being viewed as a favor by epik to it’s customers/domainers? I hope you see my point here.
2. I do agree however that all mass development will fail after a while.
I am afraid that any new changes made by epik will be platform-wide and all sites will again look same and we will deal with this de-indexing again in few months. What do you think?
3. “What it needs to do is advertise Epik merely as a platform. It’s a platform to create an online store or directory, but it also requires elbow grease.”
I again disagree here: if all we want is a development platform, then there are so many….case in ppoint WordPress/WordPressMultiSite/BuddyPress and so many others. THEY ARE FREE. You can either get a free template or just buy 1 template for like $50 or so and develop your own sites……UN-LIMITED SITES FOR FREE.
So my question is “Why do people need to pay epik $249 per site if they still need to do this work?”
I don’t mind paying money but I don’t want to spend my time in that case. If I am paying $249/site and I order 100 sites…..do you think I have time to spend on 100 sites?
In that case I am better of hiring 1 or 2 people and have them develop me WP based sites with minimal cost….no need to pay $249 per site and then spend all the time daily working on these sites in my opinion.
I would even think that you are less likely to be de-indexed if you develop on your own and don’t put duplicate content or copied content on your sites.
Gnanes says
I thought DNW doesn’t take sides and reports actual news.
Shaun says
@Duane:
“Mass development. What does it mean?
Content reproduction, same coding on thousands of sites. In the words of Google, a big pile of spaming junk sites.”
Well said.
RKB says
Thanks Andrew.
I was just pulling your legs 🙂
Rob Monster says
Thanks Andrew for the post.
I will make a broader comment on the Epik Blog shortly. We are still gathering the facts and deploying counter-measures. As of today, the total impact is that daily revenue fell by 14% versus the all-time record. The team has been executing well, and accelerating the deployment schedule of a series of innovations that should be helpful to existing Product Portal Developers, while laying the groundwork for expanded rollout of Full eCommerce for those who want it.
On the topic of IP addresses, I think this implies that the name of the game is to fool Google. I never bought into that logic and frankly still don’t. Why? Because when you are building on the scale that Epik is building, playing games does not scale. Those who do play games are simply building a larger house of cards. And that, my friends, is never what Epik was about. We did everything out in the open — to a fault.
On the topic of backlinking, here again, I disagree with the SEO experts. Their logic is that internal backlinks are a no-no. Our view is that they were genuinely useful. A site about ice cream makers linked to a site about ice cream scoops. That is useful. Cross-linking of related information is a core tenet of the semantic web, which is fundamentally what Epik is about. As a counter-measure for Google, we did remove the backlink-heavy footer. That said, we are presenting the case to Google for why limited backlinking of related stores should not be viewed negatively.
We have reached a size where algorithm changes can and will impact some Epik Developers. In this particular case, we disagree that sites like HardDrives.com and ComputerHardware.net would get taken out of the index. Although we do not believe this action was targeted at Epik, we are working with Google to review the changes to the index and, if possible, establish the basis under which Epik-powered sites become whitelisted.
In the meantime, the pace of innovation at Epik continues to accelerate. Q4 will be our biggest and most productive quarter to date. Also, we are working with many existing Epik Developers to enhance individual portfolios, including training a number of them on how to manage sites on the back-end. The reaction to the back-end tools has been very positive.
The Epik Journey continues.
Andrew Allemann says
Frankly, if Google did remove the sites because of the backlinks then Google is broken. It should “discount” the links in its algorithm because they’re part of a network, but not penalize the sites.
Einstein says
“just let us create a site and then watch the money roll in.”
Not to be a d*ck but I’ve seen the stats. They sucked. Icecreammaker or whatever that they promoted made about $200 or so a week IIRC. The rest in the teens. So, roll in wasn’t considering that many were great names and $250 was paid for the site.
Cookie cutter sites are loved by Google…engineers. They make it easy to spot and ban them all in one shot.
Einstein says
“we are working with Google to review the changes to the index and, if possible, establish the basis under which Epik-powered sites become whitelisted.”
No such thing Rob, you can’t “work with Google.” Each site must be submitted individually to Google after doing a major mea culpa and after showing them a unique and useful site.
Deluted says
You are so appreciative that you are refusing to publish negative comments like those I made in the prior article.
I didn’t believe it at first but maybe there is some legs to the rumors swirling around your own involvement.
Andrew Allemann says
@ Deluted – I haven’t deleted a single comment in this article or the previous one.
RKB says
Rob,
I don’t believe that epik learned any lessons from EvoLanding disaster that we had to go thru. 1000s of sites got de-indexed overnight due to EvoLanding and here after 2-3 years we are dealing with same.
I am begining to think that epik is here for a quick buck and trying to avoid admitting its mistakes and responsibility and hence unwilling to do the right thing. You can not solve a problem unless you admit there is a problem. And epik should not think people will keep quiet and forget in few months if there domains don’t get indexed back.
What is the guarantee it won’t happen again?
You have always acted professionally and gained our respect……we always defended you on forums and blogs whenever people tried to attack you/epik. But the reality is you always presented a rosy picture making it look like that after epik develop a site, it’s just money rolling in from there.
Regarding back links….you are admitting that you made mistake because now you removed the link heavy footer but at the same time you are saying you don’t see anything wrong with backlinks………isn’t this double speak?
Also if epik produces exact same sites and have them on same IP, then it is going to have same problems again whether you admit it or not.
I don’t think we need epik’s double speaking evasive answers any more. But we want is honest answers, please.
Sorry if my response is coming across a bit rude but got our valuable domains banned/de-indexed and we need answers.
Thank you for listening.
RKB says
Btw, a little off topic but here is another question:
Do you guys think Damand Media ‘s sites will get de-indexed as well?
Owen frager says
Einstein & Deluted = Mike Cohen
RKB says
@ Andrew,
I agree but who is gonna tell the mighty goog to do the right thing. It is the goog way or highway.
Unless all the domainers with millions of domains make a union and put a banner on their sites and parked pages saying something like:
Goog is Evil
Say no to Goog
The case against Goog
Goog is a monopoly
Goog kills small biz
etc etc 🙂
Rob Monster says
@RKB
EvoLanding was an interesting model. I backed that company with a 6-figure investment. I continue to serve on the board. As you likely know, the company went into the direction of developing site-editing tool called DevHub precisely because of the issue you and other described — there no sustainable traffic for machine-generated content that has little editorial value. DevHub is a useful tool but people have to do the work to build them. There is also no “network effect” in terms of sites being able to link to each other based on contextual relevance. So, that is where I think EVO missed the opportunity.
I also backed Internet Real Estate Group which builds high end websites like Patents.com and Chocolate.com. Around the same time, I also backed and Chaired Healthcare.com. So, these premium developments are the other end of the spectrum often taking significant sums to develop each one.
When I set out to build Epik, the intent was to take the best aspects of both ideas. The compromise is that development is not free, but it is cheap. Also, sites are accepted into the network by approval only so as to maintain a certain standard and to control blatant duplication of content within sites.
The solutions that Epik provides deliver good value. It is particularly suitable for anyone who has neither the time nor the technical interest in mastering a range of content management tools. In terms of the platform developments, we are far from done. And looking at the lackluster offerings from the “competition”, I definitely like our odds. This is why we entered the space in the first place. Epik will continue to build its own portfolio on it, while making it available to others on terms that I think are attractive.
As for Google, I really can’t comment on their agenda. I never built for Google. We built for consumers. Google search volumes and CPC are a great indication of what people are looking for, and we build for that. If Google wants to go out of its way to make it hard for consumers to find useful content, that is an entirely different issue. Either way, we’ll keep doing what we think creates the most long-term value for all stakeholders. Occasionally someone will throw us a curve ball, and we’ll take them as they come.
Stay tuned.
Einstein says
Fager said: “Einstein & Deluted = Mike Cohen”
Try again, but what did I say that is false?
Andrew, Google should discount links from ‘other’ sites you cannot control so I can’t hurt you by linking from my super-spammy site, but when it’s obvious interlinking among 10000+ sites, on top of useless /dupe content Google did the right thing.
Remember, the items can be found on their original site, Amazon or whatever store he pulled them from so what’s the need for these sites to be indexed (from Google’s perspective) ?
RKB says
@ Rob,
Again, thanks for taking time to explain.
I don’t know what else to say or do other than take your words at face value and hopefully something solid will happen soon.
Rob Monster says
@RKB
At the end of the day, betting on a domain developer is not so different than making a venture investment. The scale is different but the concept is the same.
As a venture investor, I made the highest returns when betting on proven entrepreneurs than I made betting on clever ideas with unproven entrepreneurs.
We believe there is a large opportunity in executing what I call “The Federated Amazon” strategy. Amazon was created before Google. Zappos was built during Google. Enough said.
Deke says
I can see the epik vision, but I’m afraid it would take over a million domains or so before the synergy of interlinking would overpower the deindexing from Google.
Sadly, I think in about five years, whether folks want it or not, almost everyone will have to build for themselves, not for Google, as Google will be too saturated with sites and depending on them for traffic will become a vain effort.
Just look at how many sites Demand Media and Associated Content are building. Now add in a bunch of copycats, and you see where it is going — oversaturation of sites in search.
So building for Google might become a moot point. We’ll all have to form alliances to grow.
jp says
The domain industry is just really fickle. Everybody loved whypark until it got de-indexed, then they hated it, then it got re-indexed, then they love it again. Of course I’m speaking in generalizations, not really every single domainer.
Shaun Pilfold says
I think at the end of the day “you get what you pay for”. I think that it is unrealistic to expect much for $250. That said, I think it is brilliant to charge $250 and also get 50% of the revenue going forward. I wish I had thought of it.
Memphis Domain Broker says
I have been watching the Epik sites trying to decide to invest in having some of my keyword domains developed by them.
The sites that I have personally developed are all scoring in the top 10 of Google but it is a large demand upon my time.
If they manage to make it over this hurdle I guess it will be time to give it a try.
TLD says
I tried Epik and the experience with them was an epic fail.
http://www.tld.org/my-experience-with-epik-domain-development